Yuku free message boards

1f. Re: Flying
    Posted by: "James T"  
    Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:34 pm ((PST))

If these stats
are accurate, then I would agree that it is not an acceptable number of
fatalities for any sport.  It reminds me of the stats I've read about hang
gliding in the early days, and we're still suffering from the resulting
stigma.

A pg instructor from our local club pointed out that the vast
majority of incidents that occurred locally were from the more experienced
pilots and not the beginners.  Given the fact that there are so few local hg
pilots (for now), the data was not available to apply to hg as well, although I
suspect the numbers might be roughly equivalent.  I suggested to the group that
perhaps the answer might be some sort of 'continuing education' administered
by certified instructors and required of every pilot regardless of experience
level and aircraft type.  I've never been one to believe in legislated
performance standards and I admit that it might be a bit extreme, but I was
hoping that the suggestion might at least encourage a constructive dialogue as
to how the number of incidents could be minimized.  By the lack of response, I
gather that the idea was not well received.

Again, assuming that these
stats are at least partially accurate, it becomes apparent that something must
be done to change this trend.  Perhaps encouragement of the mentoring program is
one answer - experienced pilots advising (and perhaps even pressuring) less
qualified pilots to heed conditions for their particular wing type.  Of course
this assumes that the experienced pilots know their own limitations as well as
those of others.
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1g. Re: fatality rate
    Posted by: "Mark G. Forbes" 
    Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:40 am ((PST))

> If these stats are accurate, then I would agree that it is not an acceptable number of
> fatalities for any sport. It reminds me of the stats I've read about hang gliding in the
> early days, and we're still suffering from the resulting stigma.

One thing to keep in mind is that Rick collects reports from all over the world,
and it's over a long period of time. That makes for big, scary numbers, but you need
to understand the context to evaluate the risk. And he's got a definite point of view,
so he's out looking for data to confirm his own fundamental bias.

Europe has something on the order of 50,000 paraglider pilots, from the best data I've
been able to find. We have about 4,500 here in the US. The risk of death in either
hang gliding or paragliding is about 1 in 1000 per year, based on the historic averages
here. So just in Europe alone, assuming comparable fatality rates you'd expect to see
something like 50 fatalities per year, and that doesn't count the rest of the world.

Training and equipment quality varies too; USHPA has a pretty solid program that is
emulated other places in the world, but there are places where the training is
minimal. Also, PG lends itself much better to remote hike-in sites (Nepal, India, etc.)
where the risks are significantly higher. Some of the reported accidents are pilots
who were engaged in aerobatics, a known high-risk activity, and I think there are a
lot more aerobatic PG pilots than there are aerobatic HG pilots. That may skew the
data somewhat.

Finally, because of the dramatically larger number of PG pilots flying strong conditions,
it's quite likely that some of them are "in over their heads", in wind and thermals
that are beyond their safe operating limits. The wider speed range and turbulence
handling of a HG gives it a broader safe operating area. Not infinite of course, but
bigger. It's incumbent on the pilot to recognize those operating limits and stay
within them. That's why I stuff battens when it gets bumpy!

If we had 50,000+ hang glider pilots flying worldwide, I'd expect to see comparable
fatality rates. We don't have anywhere near that many. My best estimate is that it's
roughly 1/5 of that, with half of them here in the US.

In the early days of our sport, we had maybe 1000 or so pilots flying, and the death
rate was in the dozens-per-month. It was *vastly* more dangerous back then. The rate
quickly dropped as we developed testing and training, but the early stigma took a
long time to lose. It's not all gone yet, but we're becoming more accepted as just
another sport. I'm hoping for a good burst of positive press from the movie "Rio"
which opens in April. We're putting significant marketing effort into this, with
some movie tie-in promos running in selected markets during April and May. More on
that when I get back from the BOD meeting next week.

MGF
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1h. Re: fatality rate
    Posted by: "Dan Utinske"    
    Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:43 am ((PST))

Mark,

I must disagree with you on a couple points; while I agree this is a world
wide collection of deaths, it is over a period of 9 recent years (2002 ­
2011), not an extended period of time. During this recent 9 year period it
can safely be assumed that manufacturing has taken leaps forward in design
and safety.  I don't know Rick but his basic point of view is a paraglider
by nature and design is not made for those booming thermal days, it has an
inherit tendency to collapse that so far can¹t be designed out of the wing.
His argument is that a PG pilot has a very limited window of opportunity to
deploy his/her emergency chute due to the rapid acceleration not normally
found in a broken hang glider, though HG have their own problems with
deployments and spinning wreckage.

Consideration must be given to the reports that a significant number of
pilots who are in over their head in strong conditions were in fact very
experienced pilots and instructors. Unlike HG where the reported injury and
death breaks out with students suffering something close to 48% , in
paragliding the pendulum swings to the more experience pilot with the higher
injury & death rate.  The common denominator in PG is the wing itself.  If
you recall in the early days there were many glider manufactures in the US
and as each produced a glider that suffered structural failure it tended to
go out of business; not the same in the PG community and it seems to be
accepted as the norm.

I don¹t know how HG and PG death rates compare but I doubt your assumption
of 1 in 1,000 across the board regardless of how many fly each type.  PG by
it¹s nature a higher inherent risk simply because the wing can collapse
unexpectedly.  These are not my own assumptions, they are documented fact.
A PG pilot knows these risks and accepts them as part of his/her desire to fly. 

I started this odyssey in hang gliding in 1977, and I¹m a recreational pilot
who looks at risk and measures it against the pleasure I receive from
flying.  I¹m also a Novice PG pilot having learned at Torrey Pines and I
love flying the bag at Torrey but you¹ll never find me at a place like
Dunlap or even Ellsinore in a PG between the hours of 10AM ­ 3PM.  I will
settle for boring soaring at costal sites, too damn old to want to go cross
country anyway and if I do I will be stuffing battens.

If there is an argument between the HG and PG community it lies in the
representation of our activities as a combined sport.  Few people who are
not directly exposed to HG and PG can really tell you the difference.  Many
think paragliding is being pulled behind a boat.  Fortunately but both hang
gliding and paragliding are getting a lot of exposure due to wonderful new
video cameras like the GoPro and from the up-coming movie Rio so I suspect
as the economy improves interest will pick up more then every before.  It is
much bigger in Europe because most of the flying sites are where they are
easily seen, unlike here in the US where a significant number are far
removed from population centers.

Nothing makes one feel worse then seeing someone seriously injured or killed
while participating in something we love.  Everyone should read Rick¹s
report and derive from it what they will, he¹s obviously put a lot of effort
in it.  In particular video I became aware of something that I¹d been doing
shortly after PG take off, I let loose of the risers using both hands to
help slide my butt back into the harness.  There is a video of a guy who
typically clowned around by hanging upside down at launch, no risers and he
did it one to many times with the consequences being extremely violent and
fatal.  You can bet the risers will be glued into my hands from now on so I
gained new insight from what I read and seen.

Safety First, you can fly safely thousands of times but fatally only once!


Dan
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2b. Re: PG fatality data
    Posted by: "High Flyer"
    Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:43 pm ((PST))


Mark, as usual your myopic view misses the point.  The difference is that in one form of aviation, Paragliding, The
"accidents" are actually caused by the instability of the Paraglider.
When you allude to the wrong tool for the job, you are actually validating this fact.

As for these words circulating to a "broader audience", I note that
you CC'ed no less than 4 separate lists.  I didn't see this discussion bounced to so many lists prior to your reply.
(Perhaps I missed it?)

As to the "tantrums and sneering", you obviously have a view that I haven't seen
demonstrated in this discussion.  I read an honest discussion about a published
work that seems to be spot on!

Further, I doubt seriously this discussion will be "  an example of how to
contribute to the decline of hang gliding". 
A more onerous example would be trying to incorporate engines into the hang
gliding mainstream as some, who shall remain nameless, have attempted to do
in the past.

No Mark, this is an honest discussion and it belongs on the
list and out in public.  Please try to understand that silencing important
information and opinions only contribute to the decline of all of the free-flight
regimes.

regards

~Marc



  

Kurt, I was notified by Leo that he deleted your post, given:
- the overall negative, inflammitory nature of your post
- Leo not knowing who "Kurt N" was.

I appreciate giving your name when you post, Kurt, but with many of us not familiar with you, yet, it would be good for you to put it all out there, as in "-Kurt Niznik"

I did not see your post before Leo removed it. Only later, when he told me about it, and after I'd posted my own reply to his last post, did I see the irony. My remark was to the effect that we want both PG & HG to work together, and that my cross-posting others' comments was an attempt to show - from a distance - that there is conflict out there. The irony was that your post - apparently - instead of calming the waters was fanning the flames, if I may mix metaphors.

Everyone, please note that at Leo's suggestion I've re-worded the text at the top of the Gen Discussion and Main page of the BB to state explicitly that anonymous or "objectionable" posts will be deleted. We can argue what constitutes "objectionable", but the goal is to keep our discussions here civil. That, in my book, means that we debate the issues and we do not get into personal ad-hominem attacks. You may not bathe regularly, but you may still present a sound argument.

Ernie